Lord Hansen is a Labour peer and
minister in the home office and joins us
now. Lord Hansen, great to have you on
the program. Pretty drastic plan uh from
Nigel Farage. Pretty hardline plan some
might say. He says it's the only way to
deal with this problem. Your response,
sir. Afternoon.
>> Afternoon. Um well first of all let me
just say that I think that you know
Nigel Farage's plan such as it is uh
could have been written on the back of a
fat packet is very um unc uncosted
unconstructed and it's not really going
to be very effective and it's not really
a plan that is deliverable. Now I I've
been around for a long time. I've been a
minister for 14 years in various
governments over the last 25 years and
one thing is clear to deliver something
you need to have a proper effective
plan. And what we're trying to do in
government, difficult and challenging
though it is, is to make some inroads
into some of the real challenges and
real issues without promising jam
tomorrow and promising undeliverable
plans which I can go into detail on.
Nigel Farage certainly is doing.
>> Well, we'll come on to your record in
just a moment, Lord Hansen. But just on
Nigel Farage, him saying that we need to
suspend the human rights act, do away
with the European convention on human
rights and suspend the refugee
convention as well. That is the only way
he says to stop as many people coming
here as currently are. Is he wrong? Yes.
>> Why?
>> Well, the European Convention of Human
Rights has a number of basic rights. As
your previous caller was just
mentioning, they were signed up
internationally and we'd be joining
potentially countries just like Russia
who are not signed up to that European
Convention on Human Rights. There are a
lot of rights in there which are
absolutely essential. That doesn't mean
we can't make some changes. And one of
the things that we're doing in the
current immigration bill going through
parliament now, which I'm taking through
the House of Lords, is looking at how we
can look at the question of article 8,
right to family life, and making sure
that we review that, which we will be
doing in the next few weeks to make sure
that there's aspects of judicial
discretion that are looked at again.
>> You reform the human rights laws rather
than scrap them entirely. Is the way
forward in your view?
>> I think we need we need to look at
articulate. We've said that um we've
said that in the uh immigration bill
before both houses of parliament now and
what we need to do is to look at
reviewing that in a positive way. That
is one measure in a range of things
we're trying to do which include
speeding up asylum claims, closing down
hotels, which we're trying to do now,
and also criminalizing and taking
further criminal action against those
people who are trying to secure illegal
migration into this country. They're
difficult challenging issues but we've
got a plan which is I think deliverable
again
a plan that isn't
>> just stay with Nigel Farage just just
for a moment more the suggestion that a
reform government would give money to
other countries potentially including
governments like the Taliban uh in
exchange for them agreeing to take more
uh migrants back who are currently in
the UK. Is that something you would look
at?
>> Uh well let let's put this into some
context then. people who have fled
Afghanistan, who are claiming asylum,
who are claiming those issues. They fled
Afghanistan because the Taliban were
trying to very often kill them,
particularly women and children who are
leaving those countries. Now, is it is
it fact, you know, feasible and
practical simply to return everybody to
those countries?
>> Would you be willing to do a deal with
the Taliban if it if it got some uh
refused asylum seekers, rejected asylum
seekers sent back to that country? Well,
again, one of the key issues is speeding
up asylum claims and making sure that we
deliver on who has genuine asylum. Now,
if people have failed their asylum
claim, then we will have to return them
to a place of safety. We've already sent
back in the last 12 months over 10,000
people who failed their asylum.
>> Just on that question, Nigel Farra has
basically he said he would be willing to
do that with the Taliban. Would a Labor
government
>> No, he he's basically been saying he he
wants to send everybody back who's
>> Yes. But would a Labor government be
willing to do that sort of return?
>> No. No. We We need to send people back
to places of safety. And what we need to
look at doing is to ensure that on on a
regular basis, if individuals have
failed their asylum claim, where do they
go? There may be people who can be
returned to Afghanistan, but I'm not
going to give a blanket answer saying
everybody should do that. That's not
really an appropriate way forward. Lord
Hansen, how would you assess your record
on stopping the small boats crossing so
far?
>> I would assess it as being work in
progress because it is work in progress
and it's a difficult challenge. But I
would give you some figures if I may. I
mean, first of all, we have returned
over 35,000 people who failed and had no
right to asylum in this country in the
last 12 months. That's up 13%. We've
turned over in 10,191
people who have failed their asylum
claims. That's up 28%. We've h haveved
the number of hotels that were in use at
the peak of the Tory government's hotel
use.
>> Yes. But the number of the number hold
on hold on hold. The number of asylum
seekers in hotels in total is up 8%. So
yes, the number of actual hotels might
be down, but the more important figure,
the number of people being kept in
hotels is up 8% since you took office.
>> And what we're trying to do is to speed
up the asylum claims, which we put an
extra thousand people in to do so. Yes.
And ensure that then they are determined
much quicker. And if you look at the
immigration bill, which I'm sure you
have done, you will see that there's a
whole range of measures in that bill to
establish a border force control to do
deals with France, Belgium, Germany, and
Holland to criminalize further criminal
gangs. And when those measures are
through parliament, there'll be even
further pressure.
>> Why are you going back those numbers?
>> If everything you're training is saying
is true, Lord Hansen, why are we going
in the other direction? The number of
migrants that have crossed the channel
this year in this period so far, the
start of this year to where we are today
is up 46% on the same period last year.
So you say a work in progress, there is
no progress on that. You're going
backwards. You're doing worse than your
predecessors did.
>> No, no, no, no, we're not.
>> It's up 46% compared to last year.
>> Yeah. But but the the key issue is to
find the asylum applications and
speeding those up to ensure we put but
the measures the measures going through
the parliament at the moment
>> on a border force command on
criminalizing action.
>> The key I've heard what you said you
said the key issue for most people is
the number of people coming here on
small boats which this year since you've
been in power compared to last year when
the tries were in power is up 46%. Why?
Well, there there are a range of issues
on that, including the the the very hot
weather we have here today and the way
in which that is is delt.
>> 46% increases because it's because of
it's sunny.
>> No, no. It's it's because the weather.
Have you Have you been to the channel
recently? When it's good weather,
>> I have. But surely good weather does not
alone explain a 46% increase in one
year.
>> No, no. It's because the there look
there are a range of measures that we
have got in place now that are coming
through parliament which are going to
make a big dent on that figure where we
are working very hard on a very complex
issue to ensure that we criminalize
those gangs. We bring them to court and
we do deals with France, Belgium,
Holland and Germany to make a difference
in that asylum scheme. Those measures
are in place.
>> I think you're saying no and and they
they will make an impact.
>> Yeah, I think I think you're saying that
the impact of the changes you're making
is is yet to be felt. you know they
haven't come into force yet which is a
fair point given that Lord Hansen when
should we see to expect those figures
going coming coming down rather than
going up next year year after
>> yeah well I I think we'll see them go
coming down in in from the next 12
months when this legislation comes into
place and we have manifesto commitments
as well to end hotel use and we'll be
judged on that and you know these
they're important issues that we're
trying to deal with very complex
difficult issues and when we hear today
from Nigel Farage he's offering
simplistic IC solutions that are not
costed that are back at the fact packet
that will not work. And I'm telling you
now as someone who's been in government
for 14 years over the last uh 25 years
you have to have a credible plan and the
plan he's put forward is not credible
and the things that we're doing are
indeed making a difference.
>> Do do you think just finally on this do
you think you've still got voters trust
on this? Because I hear what you're
saying about look give us more time. We
are doing things that will take time for
that to to actually materialize. A lot
of people say look you you've had a year
it's gone in the wrong direction. we've
lost faith that you know what you're
doing on this.
>> Well, I I I would say to people that
there is a credible plan. Um, now we got
to be judged on that and people, you
know, during the course of any
discussion, they want action and I
understand they want action. And I
understand why people get frustrated
about the small boat crossings, but they
can be assured that this government
wants to ensure that we have fair
migration, which is why we have a white
paper, strong action on illegal
migration, strong action on returns, and
strong action to ensure that we deal
with some of the longerterm causes that
are driving people from poverty, hunger,
and war in Africa and the Middle East to
try to get to the United Kingdom via
Europe. That's a credible plan. will be
judged on it in uh 3 or four years time.
>> I'm sure you will. Lord Hansen, really
appreciate your time this afternoon.
Thank you for coming on.